Speaker 1:
This episode of TechPod is brought to you by THWACK. This year’s THWACKcamp is over, but all the sessions are now available on demand. For over 10 years, thousands of tech professionals have joined this lively interactive event for industry insights, product demos, and fresh perspectives on the ever-shifting IT landscape. Sessions include Decomplexify Your Everything, The Integration Equation, The Future Looks Bright with AIOps, and Playing 4D Chess: The Modern IT Story. Check them all out at thwack.solarwinds.com.
Chrystal Taylor:
Hello, welcome to SolarWinds TechPod. I’m your host, Chrystal Taylor, and with me today, as always, is my co-host, Sean Sebring.
Sean Sebring:
Hey, Chrystal.
Chrystal Taylor:
Today we wanted to take some time to talk about something that is increasingly important to your mental and even physical well-being as you move forward in this digital age, which is digital detoxing. And I want to talk about what we do and what we know other people do, and how you can get some separation, I guess from the craziness that is out there in this digital world. I’ll kick things off with how do you know you need to digital detox? That’s a good starter question. What even is digital detoxing, and how do you know you need to do it?
Chrystal Taylor:
So largely a digital detox, for anyone out there who hasn’t experienced it or doesn’t know what it is, is just is basically turning off all notifications and not looking at any digital media. So no social media, no games, no anything. You’re taking a break from everything digital and going analog as in the old days, which is increasingly important, especially if you’re really tied into social media. I find personally it to be a very negative place, and it does not do good things for my mental health when I am too invested and involved with checking social media and all of these other things. It’s great for its purpose, but it’s not always great to look at it often.
Sean Sebring:
I agree, and I’m excited to talk to you about this because I have some escapes that might still contain technology, but I want to argue might not be part of what is toxic digitally, so to speak. But yeah, I’m excited to get into this topic. I think it’s very fun, and it’s also very important to talk about that mental health, and as one of my favorite video games from all time that I’m very passionate about, everything is good in moderation.
Chrystal Taylor:
I think how you know you need a digital detox can vary from person to person. For me personally, I know it’s time when I am tense a lot and I’m feeling down about the world in general, and I’m just feeling stressed out from work for instance because all I’m thinking about all the time is doing all of these things and I’m edging towards burnout. And that’s when I personally know, okay, it’s time and I need to go take a break. We’re going to go do something that has nothing to do with any of this stuff, because you know, Sean, that in my off time I play video games most of the time. So, I’m always in some form of digital world. At work I’m working on the computer, I’m involved in social media, I am doing this. It’s all on screen, on camera, whatever. I’m writing things and publishing blogs, and whatever.
Chrystal Taylor:
It’s all very digital media. And so, I get all of that, and then as soon as I’m done with my work day I shift to the right and I start playing video games most of the time. And so, I get to a place where I’m like, “I’m burnt out.” I start feeling like, “Oh, I don’t even want to play any of these hundreds of games I have in my library. I can’t find a movie I want to watch.” I just get into this blah bored phase of I have been inundated completely by too many things, and now my brain has hit an overload point where I go, “I don’t want any of this anymore.”
Sean Sebring:
Yeah, it’s tricky. And it’s so funny you bring that up. I just, I want to say yesterday had a real life scenario, didn’t plan it but it happened, where my daughter who is of an age where she plays on tablets nowadays. And it’s normal, it’s something that’s just part of life for kids in this age is to have technology in their hands. But again, in moderation. And she started to get frustrated and upset because she was asking for another game. And we had gotten her three free games that day, she was just feeling like, “I kind of want to try some new stuff.” And when she got to wanting a fourth after a couple hours, and she was like, “I just don’t know what I want, can I please just have another one?” And it was an eye-opener for an adult that the child’s going through something that we go through too.
Sean Sebring:
We just don’t know it because it’s us. Which is if you’re feeling that after playing three games, then it’s clear you’re just desperate for feeling a next dopamine hit, and it’s really becoming toxic that you’re relying on this next, next, next mentality. And similarly, like you had mentioned with social media, it’s true for forms of work too, which I’ve gotten in trouble for at home because I can be easily distracted. But if you sit down and you think to yourself like you want to relax, and then your instinct is to pull out your phone and look for a notification of some kind, might be time to digitally detox. And setting boundaries is a really good place for that because it’s easy to not catch yourself when you’re going into those modes, which is why I kept getting in trouble because I would get caught not realizing I was doing it.
Sean Sebring:
So one thing I’ve done, just to close this little thought off is, and it was also relevant to me having moved to Ireland recently, is I got a phone that has two SIM card slots. So, I have one with American SIM card, one with a European SIM card, which also means now I get spam calls, which we get often in America in the middle of the night. So, I set DND hours for the first time on my phone, never really needing it before I felt, in the U.S., but coming here I set DND hours, which is actually really good for my mental health because I might get an email notification during those hours, which I would find relevant normally, but it’s not pinging me and in my face, and it’s letting me have a set of hours where I just don’t look at my phone because it doesn’t remind me to look at it.
Chrystal Taylor:
First I want to say it’s a good call out about the kids. I think I have had that same issue and it’s easier to spot in someone else when they’re having an issue, or they’re on it so much that now the thought of taking it away from them also can throw people into this angsty-
Sean Sebring:
Oh, there was a tizzy.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yes. Well, even as they’re getting older, my son is 14, and so even as he’s getting older, if he gets in trouble for something and I take away his computer it is the end of the world. Like he is going to die-
Sean Sebring:
His oxygen supply, yeah.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yes. Yeah, it’s super dramatic, and partly that’s because he’s 14, but even as when he was smaller, the same thing. I mean, this is the tablet generation. The same thing where you notice that they’re not really sticking to any one thing and they’re starting to have issues. And as my son’s playing games and stuff, he gets angry, or frustrated, or whatever. It’s easy for me to notice and take note, and say, “Okay, you’re getting angry and frustrated. Maybe that’s not for you right now. Maybe this is not working out for you right now.” It’s not like he’s out here playing Dark Souls, which is a game that is designed to make you angry and frustrated, it’s like simple things. And so, I think that it’s easier to notice it in someone else and a lot harder to recognize it in yourself. And I did the same thing semi-recently. Well, it was like a year or two ago, and I’ll tell you exactly what caused it.
Chrystal Taylor:
What caused it is turning the DND on. What caused me to turn it on was getting Teams notifications in the middle of the night because we have a global team. And so, they had switched all of our global communications from email to Teams, and I had Teams on my phone and I started getting woken up in the middle of the night. And I was like, “Oh no, this is not for me.” I have since taken all work things off of my cell phone. I don’t need it to be on my cell phone, and I have since taken them all off. But at the time it was a spur to put on DND hours of I don’t want any notifications, I need you to leave me alone. Literally anyone, anything that’s happening in that phone, leave me alone. And I think, yeah, it’s easier to recognize in someone else.
Chrystal Taylor:
Mood changes, that’s an easy thing to spot is like, well, hear people who get really down about the world. Well, maybe you are spending too much time on social media, or watching the news or whatever, because they focus on the negative so much right now, and in the past several years it’s very negative and that can affect everything. But I mean, look around at the people that you know, it’s clearly not all bad, but maybe you just need to take a step back. So speaking to that, I think what are some of the things that you do when it’s time to do digital detox, besides turning on DND hours?
Sean Sebring:
Well, this is where I want to ask for some digital forgiveness. Just leveraging the technology, because I could argue that a record player is much more analog and still provides the same value of music, even more niche quality. But listening to music, or one of my more recent favorite trends is audiobooks. So, listening to a story, and then some of my very therapeutic activities, some may agree or disagree with, are things like folding laundry and/or yard work is one of my favorites, which I haven’t gotten a chance to get into here in Ireland yet. But I love working on my yard, which could just be the regular mowing of it or it could be going out picking weeds, things like that. But having a story in my ears, listening to a story and separating from my other problems, and going to something, I don’t want to say monotonous to make it sound like it’s boring, but something that is more rhythmic is a better way to put it for me.
Sean Sebring:
And similarly, walks. If I don’t have any of those other things to do and I’m feeling I need to take a separation from what’s frustrating and stressful about my current reality is I’ll go for a walk, and again listen to the book. And what I’ve found is really neat about that, is if there was a pivotal moment in the story or book, a climax of some kind happening, what I’m looking at around me. If I took that same walk again and I passed by the same things when I heard that piece of the story, I can remember that scene. So, it’s just a neat thing for me to just separate, go into an alternate reality of some kind, listen to a story and put my focus on something that is healthy for me, which could be that walk, working on the yard, which is also good for my house, folding clothes. But listening to something that’s not about a current event, or upcoming, or trying to progress, it’s something that just interests me, and it feels very good, and relaxing, and healthy.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah, I 100% agree, and I’ll allow it. I think that music and listening to books, or reading books, in my case I can’t do audiobooks. I have tried several times, and for whatever reason it’s not enough for me. I need to either be holding it in my hands, my brain won’t multitask to that level. I want to be fully invested in a book, and if I’m doing something else I won’t be. So, I have had a hard time with it. So, I like to read physical books or even eBooks also, because I use Libby, not sponsored. But Libby is an app that I use, which you can use your library card with to check out books from the library in a digital version, which is fantastic if you don’t want to spend all your money on books. But yeah, I think that that’s a good shout.
Chrystal Taylor:
Having a rhythmic task or a tedious task, something that can give you that dopamine hit of completion as well, it’s just a little thing like, “Oh, I performed a task, I completed it.” I can’t agree with you on housework doing that for me personally, but I do think that there are things out there that are really good for that. And there’s a lot of people that have that. You get that sense of satisfaction out of completing a task. My sister is that way with yard work, she is that way. It is like her Zen time is doing yard work, and power to her, not for me. I’m allergic to grass, so it’s never going to be for me. I accept that, and that’s okay, but I think that it works for a lot of people. It gets you out into nature while still not having to go out into nature.
Chrystal Taylor:
So you have some of that, the ambiance is different. You’re not in the same four walls that you’re always in, you’re outside your mind space because you’re doing something completely different than you normally do. And I think those are key characteristics of things that help you digitally detox, or take away from all that to regain perspective. For me, whenever I know it’s time, I take my time off. You’re not going to be rewarded for not using your time off. So, even if you don’t do anything, or even if you stay local, or even if you do something inexpensive, take your time off. That’s my recommendation. I like to go camping, whether it’s camping at the beach or it’s camping out in the woods. Typically I like to go camping someplace where I don’t have cell reception, so I can’t even be tempted.
Chrystal Taylor:
I like to be in nature and just chilling, and enjoying, and getting to hear all of the sounds. And partly that’s because I grew up in the country, and I grew up camping all the time constantly and it has a lot of special memories for me. But I really like getting away and just being in the quiet, and there’s no electronics around, there’s no things around. You have to spend time with whoever you’re with or by yourself in your own head space, and that really resets me every time. So, when I am getting to a point where I’m having a hard time, I am not doing well with whatever’s going on, I’m not enjoying anything that’s happening, I like to take a step away and go camping or I’ll go do something outside that’s not yard work, because again, I’m allergic to grass.
Sean Sebring:
Hey, how glampy is your camping? I’m curious, because if you’ve done it a lot maybe it’s not glampy at all-
Chrystal Taylor:
Listen, it depends. So, I will do hardcore camping. I have slept in the back of a truck with the open sky and not doing anything. I don’t have a truck anymore, so I can’t do that. But that was actually my favorite growing up is to just sleep out under the stars, literally not even a tent, nothing. And as I’ve gotten older, I will say don’t do that as often. So, we do some glamping. I recently went camping over spring break, and my dad has an RV so we went with my dad in his RV, which is very glampy. It’s basically a house that you’re taking with you. But it depends.
Chrystal Taylor:
We like to do both. So, whatever we’re in the mood for, or have time for, or can find a spot for, we go to state, national parks. And then also there’s a place that my family owns out in the woods. There’s nothing out there and there’s no cell service, and so we just go wherever. Sometimes it’s in a tent, sometimes it’s not. I can start a fire, I was a Girl Scout. I can go survive in the wild if I have to. Like I said, I grew up in the country-
Sean Sebring:
Nothing but scorpions and starlight, just-
Chrystal Taylor:
And mosquitoes, because it’s Texas.
Sean Sebring:
… good old rocky, southwest Texas.
Chrystal Taylor:
And you known, the struggle for me with camping now is that it’s so hot most of the year.
Sean Sebring:
Real quick on our note of listening to things, because I think it’s important since this is about digital detoxing, is this isn’t self-sabotage here but podcasts I don’t think count. And it depends on the genre, but most of them are about current events or a specific maybe career progression thing. And it could still be like reading a book if it’s on a specific professional topic, but a lot of them are not so much that. So, I would say tread carefully when it comes to podcasts, but at the same time it could be just as therapeutic and detoxing for somebody. But I would just say be careful on those, because they’re not always the case.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah, I agree with you on that point. I think there are a fair amount of podcasts out there now that are like, D&D podcasts would be an exception, because taking you into another world kind of situation. I think that true-crime podcasts should definitely be avoided if you’re trying to digital detox, because it’s again-
Sean Sebring:
Yeah, just for your own-
Chrystal Taylor:
… right into your negative head space. You’re not-
Sean Sebring:
… positivity. Yeah.
Chrystal Taylor:
… helping yourself. That’s my personal opinion. So, other things that I do to take away from the digital space is I craft, so I have a sewing machine and a bunch of other fun tools. So, I make my son’s costumes every year and sometimes I make other things. I make things for myself and whatever, and that’s a good step away where I don’t have to leave my house. It’s a good hobby to use for that, and it’s not digital in any capacity. So, I’m working with my hands. I think that’s a key component a lot of times for people to digital detox, is working with their hands a bit. Whatever it is, you’re touching it, it’s tangible versus the digital, which is not. It’s more intangible, you’re hearing something or whatever, but it’s a tangible hobby. And I read. I read a lot, voraciously. And I don’t read nonfiction because I don’t like it.
Chrystal Taylor:
I don’t need to know more about stuff most of the time, I’m good. I learn things in this escape of other things. It’s a goal, I’ll have a goal, I’ll learn about things and that’s fine. I don’t care for it in my leisure time. So yeah, I read fiction. So, that’s how I mostly spend time. And games, physical games, I can still play physical games where we do D&D. I play D&D, I do board games. I wrote a whole series about all of this stuff on thwack.com, so if you want to go check those out I wrote about the opposite of what we’re talking about, which is basically playing games digitally because of the pandemic, so I wrote it at the height of the pandemic. But I think that games are great and they’re a good way to get invested, especially depending on the types of games that you play, like board games and things like that.
Chrystal Taylor:
There’s a lot of really involved board games. You have to be pretty into board games, but there’s some really involved board games that require you to sink into, like the similar thought that we keep having, sink into another place. So, I think that’s really good. Now, other people that I know that things that they do to digital detox, again, hobbies are big, especially hands-on hobbies. Kevin Sparenberg, who has guested on the show, he, I know does blacksmithing and carpentry on the side, and he has a motorcycle that he’ll just take out and go drive in, and hang out in the wilds and whatever. They’re just driving around, just being in the open air, and I think that that’s really healthy. What about you? What other hobbies do you know of, or things to help people digital detox?
Sean Sebring:
My mom was recently in town for a few weeks, and one of the things that I always do when my mom’s visiting is we get puzzles, jigsaws, and it’s one of our favorite things to do. You talk about hands, and ways to just chit-chat about whatever you want to chit-chat about. But we’ll throw a 1,000 piece, 1,500 piece puzzle and we’ll have it for a few days, finish it and go on to a next one. But it’s a good way for us to keep our hands busy, not be focusing on screens. So, even if we’re not looking at each other because we’re looking at puzzle pieces, we’re still more connected than if we’re sitting on a couch each on our phone, diving into whatever world the phone is taking us into, whatever portal, social media, scrolling, swiping, whatever it might be. So, that’s one of the things that we’ve really gotten to bond over as she’s come over in my adult life when I’ve had kids is throwing a puzzle down, and just working on puzzles and chatting until the point where your neck’s sore.
Sean Sebring:
And you’re like, “Okay, time to go lay down,” looking over the puzzle. But one of the other things, which I’m super happy to be in Ireland for, and I’ve actually joined a hiking group, is hikes. I love going on, like you said about being outdoors, just there’s no cell service, there’s nothing in sight. And I hope this doesn’t take away from it, but I do photograph, I got to bust out the phone and take some pictures, can’t broadcast them, and I actually don’t anyway, I just keep them for myself and turn them into a photo book. But yeah, going out into the nature and just seeing things, and there’s a lot of this here.
Sean Sebring:
If I see a rock covered in moss, I’m like, “This is where I need to be. This is magical, this is where life is growing.” And again, lots of that out here in Ireland, so it was really cool to have joined the hiking group. And there’s just so many good trails where you get to have a surreal moment where you’re like, “Oh man, the world is real.” It’s not just like someone CGI’d that cool scenery. It’s a real scene you can go see yourself.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah, I think you hit on something with the puzzles, which I also love to do puzzles. A friend of mine comes over, and we just do puzzles and chat for hours, like four to six hours at a time. So, I totally get that. My sister and I also like to do the mystery solving things. I can’t remember the name of it now, but they have subscription services where you can get boxes to solve a mystery. We like to do that. And it’s not completely non-digital, because lot of times there’s like you have to go submit stuff in a tablet. But we’re not looking stuff up, we’re spending time together. And that, I think is the point I want to explore a little bit more about human beings are social creatures by nature-
Sean Sebring:
Human connection.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yes. And I feel like in IT especially, IT professionals get a bad rap for being anti-social. And in a lot of respects, I kind of understand that. I’m an introvert, I don’t want to just go hang out with a random crowd of people, but if you get your people, your tribe, or whatever people are calling it all these days, your people and you hang out with them, they’re totally different people. And I think that that’s a good example of the fact that humans need other humans by nature. Or other creatures. Maybe it’s a dog that you want to spend time with, I think humans are necessary as a point of having actual conversations. I talk to my dog, I’m sure other people do too, but she’s not saying anything back to me. I mean, nothing I can understand-
Sean Sebring:
Dogs are wonderful people. Dogs are wonderful people. Yeah, so talk to your dogs, talk to the person in the car that cut you off in traffic and can’t hear you-
Chrystal Taylor:
That’s me.
Sean Sebring:
… we just got to talk to them. That’s a callback, by the way.
Chrystal Taylor:
I think that that personal connection though is important for helping the digital detox. I think one of the things that leads to digital burnout is that impersonal, it’s a total space between what’s real and not real. You just hinted at it with this nature is not CGI, and it’s like that same concept of being personal versus impersonal. I’m seeing this real thing with my own real eyes, and touching it and whatever, I can experience it versus experiencing it on a screen where it’s like, “Oh, that’s cool,” but there’s no personal connection being developed when you see it on the screen. I mean, aside from sometimes movies, because we were talking about a movie before we started recording. I will say that there is definitely movies that you can get fully immersed in and it now becomes a pivotal experience for your whole life, I get that. But I do think as a whole that is not what happens.
Sean Sebring:
But it should be reserved as an experience. You just called it an experience, and I think that’s what it is. It’s not how you live and breathe every day, and what we’re vibing on right now, that human connection piece is also something that we vibed on from the other perspective of why it’s toxic is the dopamine hit you’re going for. And I don’t think people realize, they think it’s just normal, and it is, it’s natural, but having a conversation and relating to somebody gives you that same kind of hit really. And so, it’s a really good way to find positive experiences outside of the digital world and get that satisfaction, that gratification, the ability to relate to somebody is so satisfying and undervalued in a lot of ways, because we’re given so many tools now to just be able to stay in our little box. And the car is another good way to look at it.
Sean Sebring:
We were talking in one of our previous episodes, I think it was the last episode, about you talking to other drivers and they can’t hear you. But a lot of times, especially living in the U.S., I can relate to this, is people forget that there’s someone in that other car too often, and they think that they’re the only thing on the road. And when they’re in their car they’re in a safe space, no one else exists, and everything else is just an inconvenience between them getting from A to B. And the same thing happens with digital stuff. In fact, cars are pretty darned digital nowadays anyway. And so, it’s the same concept of when you connect with technology you forget sometimes that there’s a world outside of you and whatever you’re currently seeking that dopamine hit for on the phone.
Sean Sebring:
And yeah, it’s just important to kind of put it down. And a lot of people I see talk about this form of mental health, and conversations and healthy dialogue is like, they’ll put in the scenario, you’re talking to somebody at a table one-to-one. If your phone is face up and you keep looking at it, or if it’s in your hand and you’re talking, how much attention do you think they’re paying to you? It’s that concept, and it’s like you really need to put it down, put it away, and just engage and immerse with what’s actually around you-
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah, 100%. I mean, especially when you’re with other people. I mean, I do game nights. I’ve done game nights in the past where everyone puts their phone in a bowl or whatever, you put it away. You’re there to have an interaction with other people, you’re there to be paying attention and actually engaging with them. And I did want to talk about something real quick, we’re mentioning a lot about social media, and it’s not just social media but there are a lot of games and stuff out there that are designed, they’re designed to be addictive. They’re designed to draw you in and keep you there so you keep getting those little micro hits of dopamine that keep you through going through your day, keep you checking to go back like, “Oh, I’ve got energy again in this game. I’m going to go check in.” That’s mobile games, it’s video games on computers, on consoles, on whatever. It’s social media, it is all of these things are designed to engage your attention and bring you back constantly. They don’t want you to leave.
Sean Sebring:
Well, and keep you glued there. A lot of these games and websites get paid for amount of screen time, so it doesn’t even matter if you’re actively engaged, if it’s open, that’s a metric for them so they’ll do anything to keep you there. And it’s up to you to say when’s enough and find your limits, your moderations.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah. So, well what I’m getting at with that is don’t blame yourself. Learn to recognize the signs that it’s time to step away, but also it’s not your fault. They’re literally designed to engage your brain in that way, they’re designed to grab your attention. We can all be better about recognizing signs of problems in ourselves forever and always, that’s always true is we-
Sean Sebring:
A part of human nature, too.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah. We can always be better about recognizing a problem. You might go somewhere, and you mentioned eating with someone, of not looking at your phone while you’re talking and eating with them, or whatever. I think that we do this a lot. And also in the car, you see someone talking on the phone while they’re driving, or you see someone texting while they’re driving, or you see someone talking on the phone at a restaurant, and we will 100%, I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who doesn’t just immediately snap judge that person. Immediately you’re like, “I can’t believe they’re doing that. How awful must it be to be the person across the table from them when they’re just staring at their phone.”
Chrystal Taylor:
But we also still do those things. We’re not immune even. I mean, I’m not immune. My son helps keep me honest, to be honest. Now that he has a phone, there are certain rules, like there’s no phones at the dinner table, and he’ll catch me. I’ll have my phone out checking something, my phone will go off and I’ll go check it, and he’s like, “Mom, no phones at the dinner table.” So, it helps if you have an accountabilibuddy in that as well, have somebody that can keep you honest and say-
Sean Sebring:
That’s so funny.
Chrystal Taylor:
… “Is it time to go away?”
Sean Sebring:
Kids will keep you accountable. Any chance to be like, “Oh, you were wrong,” and it’s welcome for the most part. Maybe not in the moment, but I’m like, “Oh, thank you. Probably needed that. Can’t let you know you got the win there, but I’ll take the L.”
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah. No, and it doesn’t have to be a kid, but somebody that can get you out. Like maybe you spend a lot of time playing video games and your roommate or significant other or whatever has noticed they haven’t seen you in two days. Maybe it’s them coming in and saying, “Hey, you want to go grab a bite to eat?” Maybe set yourself up for success by having someone else around that you’re okay with recognizing that you need to step away, you need to step into some other thing. That’s a simple thing that is not fully digital detoxing. If you go to a restaurant, most restaurants now, unless it’s a nice restaurant, they all have TVs all over the place, which is wild. It’s everywhere, everywhere there’s something. Or the menu is only available through QR code, so you’re having to look at your phone-
Sean Sebring:
That one’s tough for me, because I am terrible at finding what I want to eat on my phone. I don’t know how. My wife is an expert, she actually knows what she wants to eat before we get there.
Chrystal Taylor:
Smart.
Sean Sebring:
Yeah. Well, it’s a skill I don’t have. But yeah, give me a paper menu any day. Lately what I’ve been doing here in Ireland is, “What’s the special?” Try something new, what’s this special? Try something new. But yeah, technology is such a big part of our lives, it’s super tough. But there’s tons of things that can be done and it’s just a matter of making it a priority to separate yourself from the technology.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s only going to continue to get more challenging. I mean, I just mentioned there’s TVs in restaurants, and the menus are going digital, and all these other things. It’s getting more and more challenging to find spaces that don’t have some form of digital media, or something that you have to interact with. And I mean, even if you go to a zoo or another exhibit of the kind, they have walking tours and stuff that are audio, and those are probably fine, but there’s a lot of them that have screens with information that you’re reading. They’re no longer physical plaques. It’s harder and harder to escape the digital realm, it’s everywhere. It’s absolutely everywhere. And I think it’s only going to continue to get worse. So, learning how to recognize the signs, and finding something that will genuinely engage your attention to pull you out of the digital world for a little while at least, just a break.
Chrystal Taylor:
Take a break. We’re not saying you have to leave it completely. I’m not telling you to go off the grid and never come back, I’m just saying having a bit of a break to regain perspective, get some clarity, reprioritize, because it may be that you really enjoy whatever it is that you’re doing and you’re like, “I should do this more often.” I say that every time I go camping, and then it’ll be like six months or a year and I’m like, “Why don’t we do this more often?” It’s every time, every single time that’s what I say, because I love it so much and I’ll just sit there. I love it, I get so much enjoyment out of it I feel so good afterwards, so refreshed. And then I go, “I need to do this more often. I know for myself I need to do this more often.” And then I am the worst, because I’m not a good planner, I will not plan it for too long.
Sean Sebring:
That’s funny you say that, and I had forgotten that I’d gotten some advice. I had a big year moving to Ireland, but one of my mentors that I work with actually said, “One of the best things you can do,” and you had said this early on, except his had a little more of the planning aspect to it, was use your time off, especially as you’re in leadership. If you’re looking to be an inspirational role model or figure, do you want people to look at you and say, “This guy never takes time off. I’d feel weird if I took time off”? Or do you want him to say, “Oh wow, he’s on PTO. You know what? I should put some PTO in right now.” And he actually had said to me, “Why don’t you go for your next three potential trips? And even if you have to adjust them, put them in the calendar now,” so that way you’re dedicating the time for it to take place, and then it’s upcoming and then it’s easier to get that in your head to plan it.
Sean Sebring:
But forecasting your own time off gives you something to look forward to, and it helps, I won’t say force you, but enable you to actually take the time. Whereas it’s also so easy to be like how I feel right now today and say, “Oh my God, it’s April, it’s May. And how did it get this far and I haven’t taken any time?” I did take some time. My mom came into town, took some time off. We did some good stuff, sightseeing, did not kiss the Blarney stone. But the point is, take the time, get out and go experience things. And actually all of these things can be part of what I’m about to say, travel. Realize that there’s a world farther away from your small space that you’ve gotten used to and comfortable in. And that’s not just me saying that because I am now in Ireland.
Sean Sebring:
It’s just a really cool thing to go experience a different culture, see a different climate even, go to a different part of the world where it’s something you’ve seen but not experienced. It’s just very eye-opening and surreal, and there’s going to be a lot of technology on the way, that’s okay. The point is you’re taking yourself to a different experience, and I think experience, as we’ve been talking, has been ringing to me as a big theme here, because technology can be a tool and it should be a tool. Unfortunately, technology has also become a portal to a different realm, which is this dark place that can be toxic, can be toxic.
Sean Sebring:
And so, if we’re leveraging the technology to manage a non-digital experience, I think that that’s okay. And it’s not like there’s this prescriptive definition of what is digital and toxic, but like on your camp trips, there’s some things that can be allowed because you’re still away from the social, the news, and you’re trying to just immerse in being outdoors, but you’ve still got some comforts of whatever might be in the RV, some comforts that just our modern civilization has gotten us a little used to, and that’s okay.
Sean Sebring:
And taking the pictures with your phone when you’re on a big hike on a cliffside, that’s using technology but it’s not about the phone making the experience, you’re trying to use the phone as a tool to capture your experience you’re having. And so, the experience is the big thing. If the digital is the experience, maybe that’s what you need to detox from instead of it being a tool that’s a part of the experience you’re creating. So anyway, got caught up in that long-winded moment there, but it really is, it’s about making experiences for yourself, and not just consuming an experience that was programmed for you.
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah, I think that that’s a really good point. I hadn’t really thought about it in those terms, but I think that using technology as a tool rather than as the thing you’re going to. Because that’s typically how you get drawn in, you’re going to it. I want to go check Facebook, I want to go check X, or Twitter, or whatever it’s called today-
Sean Sebring:
A destination. The digital shouldn’t be the destination, yeah.
Chrystal Taylor:
It’s about the journey, not the destination. Yeah, so using those tools, I certainly think that there is a lot of digital tools out there that make things like traveling easier, and not even just easier but help inform. Like this is why we have review sites and things like that. I want to try a new restaurant, I need to look up some things. You don’t want to go somewhere that potentially has a bunch of bad reviews. You don’t want to get food poisoning. I think that that’s a good point, just because you’re trying to take a step back doesn’t mean you can’t use technology at all. I think that technology is a tool, it plays our music for us, and I think we can all agree that music long has been a little bit of an escape, and it’s definitely part of a larger experience, and it forms memories for a lot of us.
Chrystal Taylor:
And use your other senses. It’s not just about sight and sound, which is all you get at a digital at any case. Use your other senses. Go smell something new, stop and smell the roses. Go experience something different or just not the normal. I spend most of my time within these four walls right here, this office. My computer is here, my other computer is here, so I work in here and then I play in here, and I spend a lot of time in here, and I feel best if I get out of this space in any other space, pretty much. Go outside in my yard, or take my dog for a walk, or whatever. Just change your perspective a little bit, and that helps in the day-to-day versus some of the things we talked about are bigger trips, and things you have to take time off for.
Chrystal Taylor:
And I did want to touch on something. I just want to reinforce what you said about how important it is for leadership to be the example. If you are in a leadership position and you’re telling your people to take time off, and you’re telling them to take mental health days, and you’re telling them to do those things but you don’t do any of those things, as Sean mentioned, they’re maybe not going to feel comfortable doing those things, especially if they’re junior or newer to the company. There’s a stage, a long stage where people don’t feel comfortable taking advantage of the perks that they get. And I-
Sean Sebring:
Well, it’s a do as I say, not as I do kind of thing. And it’s very conflicting in the messaging that’s coming across, because most messaging is non-verbal. So, what are you really telling me if you actually do take PTO and you’re constantly connected and managing me? Which is probably the worst message that I could see from somebody. Now, there’s two points to that. There’s chill time off and then there’s real time off that some people, I think it could all be argued, it should be all complete disconnect.
Chrystal Taylor:
I would argue that.
Sean Sebring:
Yeah. But either way, yeah, I’m glad you brought it back up because it’s such a strong point that I don’t want anyone who I work with, or works for me, or I work for to think that you can’t take PTO. Or if you do, you should still be semi-connected. That’s a strings-attached that’s not fair. And it’s not something that I feel, it’s just something that I think we should all be aware of.
Chrystal Taylor:
And I’d say too, I think that that follows for even if you’re not, let’s say in a leadership position at work and you’re just a regular guy doing a regular job, you’re just an individual contributor. I mean, that same thing though, your kids are watching you, your friends are watching you, the people you interact with, if they see, “Oh, well so-and-so is taking time off. You know what? That’s a really good idea. I should take some time off.” Your kids especially, if you’re encouraging them to take time out of school when they’re sick. And we have to. For instance, you can’t send them to school with a fever. They have to stay home.
Chrystal Taylor:
But if I have a fever, I already work from home, I might feel like I could just do my job. But maybe you should take that time off to heal properly. You need to start thinking about those things as well. We aren’t all role models to a lot of people. There’s celebrities and high profile people that are role models to lots of people. Lots of girls out there look up to Taylor Swift, for instance. They look to her as an example, but there are people that look to you every day, regular people in regular world just-
Sean Sebring:
And you might not even realize who’s watching you and admiring, or concerned about a behavior.
Chrystal Taylor:
Nieces, nephews, I mean, people that interact with you. Kids, your kids’ friends from school, I mean, especially kids. I think they’re so highly influenced by what people that they admire are doing, and obviously I mentioned Taylor Swift, but I mean, other normal people too. If you’re a favorite uncle, or if you’re really close to your friend’s kids or whatever, there’s definitely you can be that role model to say, “Okay, it’s time to take a little bit of time off. You know what? I just wasn’t feeling it today. I decided I was going to take a nap,” or whatever. Those little things-
Sean Sebring:
Go float in the pool.
Chrystal Taylor:
… can add up. Yeah, and show them that it’s not the worst to be an adult. Because I feel like we often just complain about all the terrible things that are happening. Like I tell my son this all the time, “Enjoy your childhood. It’s the shortest time period of your life. Don’t fight so hard to become an adult.” And now I’m talking out loud, I’m like, “Well, maybe I am doing him a disservice also by making him think being an adult is going to be the worst.” Maybe it’s not going to be the worst. You have more abilities to enjoy yourself, or take a moment and take care of yourself because that’s the vibe I need to give myself is take care of yourself, do a better job taking care of yourself.
Sean Sebring:
Yeah, we’re talking to ourselves now. This is good therapy. Good therapy, Chrystal. This is very therapeutic, but it’s all very true. It’s all very true. I think it’s such a nice topic, and a secret mental health episode talking about digital detox here. But it’s just, I think we all need it sometimes and we forget. And so, maybe it’s even just a small enough reminder to say, “You know what? When I get home I’m going to put my phone down and go and enjoy some time with no screens for a little bit.”
Chrystal Taylor:
Yeah. One last story I have for everyone is, so whenever I first came to SolarWinds, I was a Head Geek. And one of the responsibilities that I had to take on was having social media presence. And that became a big problem for me, a big problem. The doom scrolling and looking at social media all the time. And I actually, I wrote an article about what I did to get away from this because it was really, really bad for my mental health. And so, if you are out there and you have a job responsibility that requires you to be on social media, for instance, just take a moment to recognize that just because you’re on social media for work doesn’t mean you need to be on it all the time. Or set yourself set hours of, “I’m going to check between this time and this time,” and then don’t look at it outside of that, that is my recommendation. It is a toxic place. There are obviously wonderful things out there as well, I’m not arguing that there’s not, I just think it is designed-
Sean Sebring:
Yeah, the potential toxicity of keyboard warriors coming to get you, it’s there.
Chrystal Taylor:
Even when it’s positive news. You spend your time doom scrolling and you’re constantly … It’s just, again, it’s that disconnect of you’re-
Sean Sebring:
Looking for the next positive thing, looking for the next positive-
Chrystal Taylor:
There’s a song that’s looking through a window. It’s like you’re on the outside looking in at what other people are doing, and experiencing, and you’re not experiencing anything. And that I think is the key takeaway for me on social media is you’re not actually experiencing anything. You’re just viewing someone else experiencing a thing, and they may or may not be being honest and there’s no way to tell. So, you could be getting a false sense of what an experience is, even less than getting someone else’s perspective of an experience. So go have your own experiences, get your own experiences, enjoy your own perspectives. That’s my advice.
Sean Sebring:
Couldn’t agree more.
Chrystal Taylor:
Thank you so much for joining us on TechPod today for this introspective in what we think digital detoxing is, and what you should look for in terms of are you needing to digital detox. This has been Chrystal Taylor and Sean Sebring as always. If you enjoyed the podcast, please rate and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and join us next time on TechPod.
Sean Sebring:
Thanks for tuning in.
