For managed services providers (MSPs), reactive services came first. Then device management. And, now, it's time to talk about managing people. Join David Weeks, SolarWinds MSP director of sales, and Chris Reid, Sr. product manager for SolarWinds® N-central®, as they talk about how to make the switch from devices to people—and why it makes sense for MSPs.Related Links
Announcer: On this episode of SolarWinds TechPod, A Time To Grow, MSP Sales Director David Weeks…
David: “…really it comes down to, I think, is about a change in how an MSP is going to have to manage their environment moving forward…”
Announcer: …speaks to SolarWinds N-central Product Manager Chris Reid…
Chris: “…where we can really drive a lot of efficiency for MSPs is to let the MSP look you up as a user and then see all the entities associated with you…”
Announcer: …about the changing landscape for tech pros, where the cloud becomes the workspace they manage and the need for them to manage multiple devices for single users grows.
David: Hi, and welcome to the TechPod from SolarWinds, I’m David Weeks, director of sales. And I’m joined today with Chris Reid, senior product manager. So today we’re going to talk a little bit about user experience, Chris, and obviously user-centricity and what we mean by those terms, I think really there’s a business and a practical component to it, but the way that I look at it from a business component is it’s about how do you manage the expectation of an end user in the way that they engage with technology. And really that’s, you know, my mindset on it from a business level and I think, really, what’s your take on it from a technology perspective?
Chris: Yeah, thanks Dave. And thanks for having me here today. It’s funny that you mentioned that because from a technology perspective, when I hear you say UX, I often think of the UX around designing software. You’re really making reference to it in terms of what is your user’s experience, what is the MSPs end customer experience with the service that the MSP is providing. The other term that we just mentioned there was a user-centricity and from my point of view, from a technology point of view, that is making sure that the products that we sell or the workflows that we provide in our products are all about making your technicians efficient because they are focused on that user holistically, not just one element of that user, not just their laptop and not just their phone but that user as a whole.
David: Chris, really it comes down to I think about change in how an MSP is going to have to manage their environment moving forward. And it’s really around the fact that we’re seeing core infrastructure start to disappear and move to the cloud. And I think, you know, getting your perspective from a technical standpoint: what should MSPs really be looking at as they move forward in the management of their customers?
Chris: Definitely as you said, the rise of cloud services like Office 365, like Azure Web Services or Amazon Web Services, certainly makes this a lot more difficult for MSPs because now, suddenly, they have to manage not just the laptops and the phones that their customers are using, but also those cloud services. And that creates both new opportunities and new challenges.
David: Yeah, and you know what, it’s funny: when I look at the business aspect around that and MSPs when I talk to them on a regular basis say, “But you know, we’re seeing a shift in the revenue that we’re generating off customers obviously because we’re losing some of those devices.” And I think it’s really about looking at the opportunity that sits there. If you can wrap services around the cloud-based applications, then that is all in relation to you know, the user-centricity side and really getting to a point where you’re ensuring that they have the connectivity, that they can get to the core applications and so forth. And then looking at that though from a platform perspective, I mean what should an MSP be doing on a regular basis to ensure obviously you know that connectivity, that user experience and so forth?
Chris: Yup. Yup. The interesting part, too, is that with user-centricity that you just mentioned is that suddenly they’re dealing with not just one console like their RMM. They’ve also then got to manage other cloud consoles or their tools or their router’s web console, whatever the case may be. One of the challenges that this sort of new era of cloud computing and cloud services presents is, “Well, my technicians suddenly have to become familiar with, you know, not just my RMM solution, not just my PSA solution, but also the intricate technical details of Office 365 like I said, or Amazon Web Services. They have to know a much broader skillset. It’s important to take a look at things like, well how can I not just take care of my customers problems but how can I take care of my techs? ‘Cause there’s a lot of burden you’re placing on them to be as efficient as they were before, but with knowing a lot more tools, with using many different web consoles.
David: Yeah. So when we look at that then I guess it comes back to the utilization of an engineer and when we look at that, then it’s really a discussion around how do we ensure consistent efficiencies across the way that we deliver service. And you know, we’ve always talked about the efficiencies, the automation, the monitoring and the management from a device-level perspective. And now when we’re looking at it from a user perspective, it actually changes the relationship, I think, that the MSP has with their customer. They’re more broadly engaged across the whole environment. Typically they were in the background. Where now, I think that they have to be in the forefront. And a big component that I like to talk about when we look at SaaS-based applications is, you’ve got to look at it from a core competency and you’ve got to understand from the customer’s perspective what are the most critical. And, really, probably one of them is going to be the core revenue generation for the company, something that they rely on. Could be a CRM, something along those lines–like a Salesforce, for instance. And from that perspective, then, how does an MSP start to stack their services? That’s really, I think, the big question that we have.
Chris: Yup. Yup.
David: So, talking about that, we’re almost saying that we’re going to start to decentralize services in a way for an MSP. So it’s not going to be the single console anymore. Now when we look at that, should an MSP still be planning regular maintenance and the core monitoring of those applications?
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. That’s a good way of looking at it. And in fact, I’m going to build on something you said earlier around there’s not just the monitoring of a given service. There’s also the automation you want to surround with it, the management you want to do and also what impacts it has to that end customer. So things like, for example, if you’re starting to resell Office 365, you may want to, in your RMM solution, start monitoring whether Office 365 is generally accessible. Are the IP addresses that you know your customers need to hit available? You may also want to look at the activities inside of Office 365, like, are people near the limit of their mailbox? Or did Dave, for example, did your Office 365 account suddenly start sending out a lot more emails than normal and that may indicate that you’ve been perhaps compromised in some way? Maybe you’re starting to send out spam. But then you also want to look at things like automation. Are things you can do using the integration hooks that your cloud service provider provides, like PowerShell or APIs, or other web hooks to automate fixing various problems that come up that are relevant to that cloud service using your RMM solution or using one of your existing tools. And then you get into even more interesting things like NetPath that dives into not just, “Hey, is Office 365 or some cloud infrastructure running in general,” it also starts to get into, what are your customers experiencing when they tried to access that cloud service.
David: So it’s interesting when you talk about that experience. Again, the way that I look at it for an MSP is it’s really about risk mitigation, right? What is included in your SLA? What’s included and what have you promised to the customer? But ensuring that you mitigate areas where you don’t have control. And I think NetPath is a critical component to that. When I’ve been talking to a lot of MSPs and we’re discussing things like NetPath and looking at the services, they’re trying to figure out a way to bill the cost of that to their customer. And the way I look at it is, this isn’t a cost for your customer, it’s a benefit to you as an MSP, right? Because in the background, if you’re managing those services correctly, then you ensure that the user is able to maintain productivity in their job function. And so earlier I talked about core infrastructure disappearing. So for instance, we have a lot of MSPs who would never install a physical server anymore, right? Everything’s a cloud-based service. But if an MSP shifts their focus to the user, there’s actually a greater number of devices when we look at the laptop, the desktop and the workstations, and you know, this concept of workplace-as-a-service and so forth. I think you can throw around a lot of different buzzwords. But it really comes down to economy of scale. And you can manage one or two servers and a couple of routers and switches or you can manage 30, 40, or 50 laptops. And I think that you actually have a greater stickiness with your customer when you’re managing that component of the end user. And then obviously looking at that, then there’s an overlay of security and so forth. So I think that the services naturally start to stock on themselves.
Chris: Absolutely. And actually you’re just talking about the value to the customer. One of the things that I know I wanted to bring up in this podcast was to talk about an area where I think a lot of MSPs perhaps overlook some of the requirements of their customers have, which is around reporting. a lot of MSPs nowadays produce, for example, executive summary reports that they provide to their customers every month or every quarter to tell them how they’re doing. Those reports, in a lot of cases, they’re very much device-focused. And I think there’s a real opportunity for MSPs in general to start providing more user-focused and cloud service-focused data in those reports to their end customer to provide them with that overall picture of not just what’s going on with your laptop and your wireless access point of your office, but also with [for example] Dave, you as a user, how is your Office 365 account doing, how is the cloud infrastructure that you’re hosting or you’re managing. I think adding in a lot of those reporting elements to this is actually somewhere where I think a lot of MSPs could focus bit more.
David: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because I think that traditionally the way that we looked at it was almost like a single point of connectivity, right? A user connected to something locally within the office. And so an MSP was able to manage within the four walls of a customer. And today, because everything is leaving those four walls, we have to look out to the greater network. And it’s interesting because a user has the ability to not only connect from a laptop, but a multitude of mobile devices as well. And so when we think about that, that means that a user is almost always on. So I think even this concept of 8-to-5 management starts to disappear moving forward in that people just expect connectivity now moving wherever it is that they are in the world.
Chris: Yep, absolutely.
David: So when we look at that in terms of UX and some of those core areas, your reporting side’s really interesting to me because I think you’re right. I think reporting is going to start to shift to business intelligence-type information to show that the management and the protection of those revenue streams is in place and that the productivity of a user is maintained. So from a business-level perspective, the way that we would look at that is it’s a completely different return on investment type discussion now, where before it was about uptime versus downtime and now it’s about connectivity and capability.
Chris: Yup. Yup. From a toolset point of view, you need to make sure that you can still monitor those traditional elements inside the four walls of your customer’s office. But you also need to make sure you have really in depth troubleshooting modules and monitoring modules that you can plug in to take care of whatever cloud services your customers are looking to use or purchase from you.
David: So when we talk about cloud services–because you have to rely on your cloud provider as well too, obviously–how do we educate a user on moving to this model where maybe today they are on physical devices? I mean really, how do you get a business owner to understand that concept that moving to the cloud gives you greater scalability, elasticity, etc.
Chris: Good one. I think a lot of it is playing to the angle of cost. These guys have already invested a lot in physical, onsite infrastructure and at some point in the near future, maybe it’s one year, maybe it’s three years or four years out, that hardware is going to need to be refreshed and they’re going to have to invest a significant amount of capital in doing that. That has downtime implications, that has capital cost implications, that’s money that is a sunk cost at that point, as well. I think the easiest way when you’re talking to a customer is first to contrast what their on-premise hardware is costing them now in terms of overall upkeep versus what a cloud service that provides a comparable service would do. And then I think the second thing is to talk about just how much better that cloud service is going to be from a scalability point of view, from a redundancy point of view, from a administrative point of view, just how much easier it is both for the customer and for you as the MSP to take care of that product for them.
David: Yeah. So when you talk about that and having the discussion with a business owner, a big one that I talk about is, it’s a capital expenditure (as you mentioned) versus an operating expenditure. And really in a simplistic view, do you want to own the house outright or do you want to rent? Well, from a business-level perspective, they probably want to rent, right? And then they don’t have to worry about refresh cycles, migrations, etcetera, because ongoing, the cloud provider or that service provider is naturally going to be upgrading everything for them as needed to the latest and greatest. So, from their perspective it’s seamless on a regular basis, but cloud’s not perfect and there is still downtime. And so we still see that. And so how does an MSP then manage expectations with a user? I think is a big question that an MSP can’t control the cloud provider, but how do they work to educate the business owner or the user when there is a downtime issue?
Chris: Good one, and I think this is really where NetPath comes into play. For those of you that haven’t seen it yet, NetPath is a phenomenal visualization tool to help you understand where a customer may be experiencing a problem with a cloud service. So if [for example] Dave, if you called me and you said, “Hey, I can’t access Office 365 or my access to Amazon Web Services is slow and I don’t know what’s going on,” if I’m the MSP, I don’t own that cloud service, but NetPath lets me really quickly understand if the problem that David is experiencing is local to his network, it’s inside the four walls as Dave mentioned earlier, maybe it’s a local firewall or if it’s something where it’s a hop along the way, somewhere out on the Internet. And so maybe my troubleshooting step is I need to go in and contact whoever owns that hop. But NetPath, as one example, lets me quickly tell my customer, “Hey Dave, you know what? We’ve got this problem, I understand what’s happening and it looks like it’s either something inside your network, in which case I’m going to do the following steps or it’s something that’s outside of your network. So don’t worry, we’re going to contact whoever the provider is.” But I think providing MSPs with that kind of visualization really helps it a lot.
David: Yeah, I agree. And thinking about that concept from a management component, you’re right, I think it allows an MSP to quickly get their engineer back to billable time as required. So if it’s outside the network, we can inform the customer, “Hey, we know that there’s an issue with Office 365. We’ve checked the local services site, we know it’s going to be x amount of time before they say it’s back online. In the meantime, your users can go ahead and do whatever it is that they need to do outside of Office 365. We’ll keep you informed on remediation steps.” But then again, as you mentioned within the network, we can quickly identify with something like a NetPath or with the proper monitoring in place that “Hey, you know what? It is us, it’s within the four walls. I got to get on it right away.” And so an engineer then starts to have maximum efficiency, but the end result to the customer is they have better insight into what’s actually happening as opposed to sitting around troubleshooting over time and not really being able to give them updates. And so when I look at UX, I really see that across four core areas. Obviously the infrastructure management that we talked about, there’s always going to be some local infrastructure plus external. Then there’s the network management side, then there’s the user management side, but then I think that there’s a big overlay of business continuity. And so, what should an MSP be looking at in terms of local protection for a user that they still have availability to files and so forth that they might require, even if there’s a services downtime?
Chris: Yeah, exactly. A great example of that is our [SolarWinds] Backup solution, in fact, where you have a Local Speed Vault onsite that helps you quickly restore files in case there’s an issue, but it’s also available to you in the cloud if you need to do a larger backup or a more infrequent backup.
David: Yeah, yeah. No, it’s interesting because I travel as you know, on a regular basis. Three hours before my flight coming over to Europe and my computer blue screens, I’m able to get back online, used our backup and I actually did my own restore on Wi-Fi while traveling. So I’m actually back online now, which is interesting. And I’m a sales guy and I was able to do that. So that works out well. So when we think about the concept moving forward, should MSPs expect from us to start to see a shift in the way that we develop our products for them to be able to manage these types of services?
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. This is an area that is really near and dear to my heart. As time has gone on, as cloud services have become more and more important and as a user has started to represent not just a person with a laptop or a person with a workstation, they’ve now got a laptop, a phone, they’ve got an Office 365 account. They’ve got backup data like you mentioned. They’ve got several different cloud services that they’re consuming. I think that the RMM products that we sell, you’re going to see them start to evolve more towards the user first as the primary way that you start interacting with the RMM solution as opposed to looking up Dave, your laptop, when you call me, I think where we can really drive a lot of efficiency for MSPs is to let the MSP look up Dave, you as a user, and then see all the entities associated with you: your laptop, your phone, your Office 365 account and then from that same place be able to very quickly reset a password, wipe your phone ’cause maybe you lost it while you’re traveling, restore your Backup Documents, whatever the case may be. But I think that’s a very natural progression that you’re going to see us get into because it really will help drive efficiencies. You’re going to be able to very, very quickly help that customer out, understand what they’re experiencing and take the appropriate steps.
David: So kind of a pointed question to you, do you think MSPs should start to train users to self-remediate?
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I think that there’s two elements to this. One certainly is that as an MSP you need to have visibility into every service your customer is consuming and you need to be able to fix problems with those services or at least tell your customer what’s happening with those services as quickly as possible. But I also think that there is an opportunity here, just like with reporting, where MSPs could put more capabilities in their customers’ hands. There’s probably more that the MSP market as a whole could do here around things as simple as, hey, you’ve got a System Tray icon, what are some pre-bundled automation activities that you could put into that System Tray icon to let your customers handle the top three or four kind of “automatable” problems that they may come across: you’ve lost your Office 365 account password. We can reset it for you. Click a button here and go, I think that’s a great example. Or, “Hey, you’ve had a data continuity problem? Well click here, restore your documents yourself,” just like you did. Those are really easy examples where I think you can start to push more capability, not responsibility but capability down to the end customer to take care of a couple of problems on their own because it’s going to give them the best user experience.
David: Correct. And I think that’s what it’s all about. The more that a user feels that their experience is a positive one with the service provider, the stickier that that contract’s always going to be. And then when we start to overlay protections into the environment and protocols along those lines is where, you know, we start to see the end users maybe get a little bit frustrated and they feel that you’re blocking my access or not giving me the same capability. But really, my argument would be, in the end you actually have a better user experience because the MSP is protecting them from allowing some type of event to occur that would actually be more painful for them.
Chris: Yup. Yup. And if you make it so they can easily understand what capabilities they have. In a lot of cases people get frustrated not because they lack of capabilities all of a sudden it’s because they don’t know what capabilities they do have that they can use. It’s a case of educating on the positive, not so much educating a negative, really.
David: Yeah. So, that actually segues into a big component that I like to talk about with this. With UX and with this type of management where before we would email a monthly report, the executive summary, as you mentioned, those days of account management are dead. That’s my argument in the industry and you need to be more visible onsite and you need to be consultative in what you do. And so we’re seeing more and more and the education that we’re doing is pushing MSPs to get onsite and offer more like virtual Chief Information Officer-type services where you can be a part of the business, part of the planning and the goals and objectives, and as a result actually help drive your own sales opportunities moving forward in the consulting that you do.
Chris: That’s great. Are you seeing Dave MSPs coming up with, for example, training courses on common cloud services?
David: Training on cloud services, training on security is a critical one I think onsite, as well, and why it’s been implemented. But, yeah, education gives a face to the MSP in front of the user where before they were kind of behind the firewall, I guess is the way that you could say it.
Chris: Yup. Yup. Well, certainly traditionally the MSP has been all about how can I automate as much as possible, stay in my office as much as possible and not have to roll a truck as much as I can, because that affects my profit margins. It’s a really interesting change that you’re mentioning here where it’s not so much a matter of going on site to fix problems. It’s a matter of going onsite to educate and to be that voice of technology, that voice of seniority to help guide the customer’s technology decisions.
David: Yeah. And, and it’s funny because everybody relies on technology. I don’t think there’s a business out there today that doesn’t rely on technology. And so if technology is really the lifeblood behind how a business runs, then the more education that you do, the more that they see the value in that and when they see the value, they’re willing to make a greater investment. And I think that’s changing the perception in the marketplace for business owners. So, you know, really interesting overall, whenever I look at how this market is starting to shift, and we started this discussion probably two years ago now where we always priced programs with MSPs on a monthly services fee or by device. And two years ago we started talking about per user pricing. And I’m a huge proponent of, where possible, pricing everything by user because you’re starting to educate indirectly the end customer on how you’re going to shift your management services moving forward. So when we think about that today, what are the top three things, if you kind of have that in your head, Chris, that an MSP, if they’re looking to make that shift to user experience-type management, what are really the first three things that they should go look at?
Chris: Oh, good question. I think I’ll deal with the largest one first, which is Office 365. That is the cloud service that is a user-based cloud service as opposed to a device-based cloud service. And this is maybe an interesting definition to make here. There are loads of cloud services out there. You can through Office 365 manage your users’ SharePoint accounts, their One Drive accounts, their email accounts. That’s a very user-focused cloud service. Though there are also device-focused cloud services like Amazon or Azure where you’re spinning up virtual infrastructure and that doesn’t necessarily represent a user, per se. It’s just computers that you’re spinning up in the cloud. I think the interesting part really comes down to on the on the user-focused cloud services (like Office 365, like G-Suite), there’s two things to do. One is that as an MSP you need to understand how that infrastructure is doing. So there’s a bunch of monitors that you can set up in RMM, in N-central, in your MSP business in general to ensure that you’ve got that set up properly. You know, for example, how many licenses you’ve got coming up. You can forecast when those might run out. You know what Exchange mailboxes are getting close to capacity. So you can either address that by giving them more capacity, by having them archive some mail, by changing their user behaviors. As you said, going onsite and having a training session around “Here’s how your Exchange archiving works and here’s how you can help manage that yourself” is a great tool to put in place. But then I think, too, that there’s also going back to the concept of empowering the end user–there’s capabilities you can give them, like resetting their Office 365 account or changing their Exchange parameters from within a System Tray icon or from within an email sent to you guys. I think those are key ones to take care of. Where it gets a little more interesting then moving away from Office 365, is into mobile device management. Everybody’s got a phone. Some people have two, some people have three. Those get lost. I’m sure, Dave, in your travels—you travel all the time—I bet you you’ve lost a phone or two.
David: A few. Yeah.
Chris: Yeah. And it’s a source of panic because suddenly you think, “Well, not only do I not know what I’m doing anymore ’cause I don’t have Google Maps, but I’ve lost or I’ve put at risk all of my corporate data, all of my personal contacts, all my personal information or professional information that happens to be stored in that phone.” So I think there are some very common things that you may want to provide to the MSP or to their customers to quickly kind of self-service in those situations. Things like wiping the phone or locating my phone or causing it to ring or sending it a text message, so you can quickly find it if you happen to think you’re still in the same region. Those are really easy ones that I think, to be honest with you, are a great candidates for making available to the end user so they can kind of bypass the MSP a little bit or at least not directly engage with the MSP in those cases.
David: Yeah. So it’s funny that you mention that because yes, when I even forget my phone, for instance in a hotel room, I start to sweat because I think it’s lost. So it’s pretty sad actually that we’re that tied to it. But that happens and you’re right, it’s the lifeblood of what we do on a regular basis. And I am nothing without Google Maps, by the way. I will just walk aimlessly until I find my way back to a hotel. So it’s, you know, it’s true. It’s funny that, you know, you talked about the infrastructure side. So as we talked about devices going away, the MSP is actually not losing. They actually are just having to monitor and manage in a different way now and it’s just not tied to a specific device.
Chris: Yep. And not only are small businesses and medium size businesses looking for help with setting up those cloud services and for using them, they’re also looking for recommendations. Which cloud service should I use? Do I want to go with Office 365 or do I want to go with maybe Google G-Suite, or something else? Which cloud service do I choose from? Because there’s a lot of them out there; for every One Drive, there’s a Dropbox. It’s a very full field in any given area. One spot where I think MSPs can can help, going back to the virtual CIO role, is to make recommendations. “These are what we think are the best tools in their particular vertical and here’s why.”
David: Yeah. And I think MSPs, where possible, should standardize their customers. I think that allows for the MSP to drive more efficiency internally, one training point for their engineers, and not trying to support a multitude of different applications. Now, however, there are still always going to be almost a vendor component of management where they’re going to have proprietary applications that maybe you can virtualize. And so the way that we talk about it, and there’s been a lot of discussion of this in the MSP Institute that we have now which is obviously some really great stuff for MSPs to join as well, is that concept of “When do you start to have that consultative discussion to start to shift your customer?” And I think going back to what you were saying, end of life of hardware is a great component and I believe an MSP should present two proposals to their customer. They should present a physical option with a project attached to it and show them the cost and then they should show them a virtual proposal in an Op/Ex model.
Chris: Yup, absolutely. And there is not just a matter of cost you can associate to those two sort of proposals that are going to put forward. There’s also a security implication, as well. And in some cases that may guide the customer towards keeping their data on-premise because maybe they have compliancy reasons that would force them to do so or would benefit them from having that data onsite. But I think that there’s a security aspect to it that really makes a compelling case to say why you should go cloud or maybe why you should stay on-premise. And there’s nothing wrong with staying on-premise, by the way, but in a lot of cases it’s just not necessary anymore.
David: Yeah, I think that really comes into the concept of the hybrid cloud, right? Maybe some goes into the public cloud, you have the Office 365 but maybe your core infrastructure you want it in a private cloud for more control. And so I think as MSPs look at that with customers, you’re right, it’s, a deeper discussion. I think that the sales cycle changes now where the sales cycle is not pushing a device, a box, or a software. It is a consultative approach to say, how can we help you manage your business and protect your revenue streams on a daily basis?
Chris: Exactly, exactly. Yeah.
David: Well, you know what I mean? It’s going to come. I think it’s really there today and I think that if MSPs are looking to make that shift, then they just need to talk to us because we’ll help them and we’ll guide them in the way that they can structure their business around this, both from a business perspective and then again from your side, Chris, I think on a technical perspective.
Chris: Exactly. I think that’s one of the key ingredients to the SolarWinds special sauce is that not only do we help you with really great market-leading technology solutions, we’re also there to assist you with thought leadership, with business best practices, with understanding what else is happening in the industry, to really help you guide what your sales organization needs to look like, what sort of marketing materials you need to have in place. I think that’s a really exciting aspect of the MSP space is just how involved we can get with our customers on that front and really help them grow their business.
David: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting because some MSPs who have already made this shift that I talk to will actually base a contract specifically around one cloud-based service that a customer is so reliant on and they’re actually generating almost the exact same amount, and sometimes more revenue, than a full managed services contract that they have of on premise.
David: Well, I mean, if you can relate a core application to being the sole component of revenue generation for a company, there’s a lot of value around that.
Chris: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep.
David: Well, Chris, this has been awesome. Great discussion. So I appreciate your time today, Chris. I think this has been a really good discussion.
Chris: Yeah, thanks for having me. This has been fantastic.
Announcer: Thanks for visiting. We’ll catch you on the next episode of SolarWinds TechPod, A Time To Grow. And remember, we want to hear what you think! You can subscribe, rate, and review SolarWinds TechPod wherever you listen to podcasts.